Wednesday, December 31, 2014

天人合一的定義是什麼 What is Human and Nature as One



這是我在FB上提出的討論, 再次感謝朋友們的發言, 分享於此...
I posted this question on my Facebook and thanks to all the comments from friends. Would like to save all the conversation here.

都說彈琴的最高境界是天人合一, 想請問琴友們對天人合一的定義是什麼?
很玄乎還是其實一點也不玄並且還很科學?

The Guqin philosophers like to say that the highest goal of playing the qin is to reach the stage that nature and human are as one, or are harmonized. What do you think of this idea? Is it too mysterious or very scientific? Would like to hear my qin friends' opinion. Please share your thought. Thanks.

  • Charlotte 还不会弹琴，但对“天人合一”有点体会。当我独自一人坐在冰川雪山间，沐浴着暖暖的阳光，细听着潺潺流水。感觉自己就是一朵雪花，一朵浮云，一块冰粒儿，一滴欢腾的泉水或是一块会唱歌的鵝卵石。此时的我，真希望自己会弹古琴！


  • Peiyou 不用會彈了, 你已經融入天地之間, 彈琴也不見得到的了你這感受呢~:)


  • Peiyou 不過那可是給彈琴者一屢線索在琴上探索, 呵呵~


  • Charlotte 我常幻想自己在云雾缭绕的山顶，任风吹着飘飄逸的长发，手指在琴弦上尽情地发挥。。。day dreaming ...



  • JenYuan 人格修養提升內涵……



  • Peiyou 我的一些想法, 是從科學角度來想, 藉由彈琴成為有知性有靈性之人... 因為讀了清陳幼慈的[琴論]中說: "夫音韻者,聲之波瀾也. 蓋聲乃天地自然之氣... 凡天地化生萬物莫不有聲, 龍吟虎嘯, 聲之巨者, 蠅蚓螉蠮, 聲之小者, 敲金戛玉, 聲之清者,...總之則清濁二音, 互相配合使之宣導湮郁而已." 他說的這些是自然界的現象. 聲音的自然現象, 那麼我們人就是讓各種不同強弱大小長短等等之音藉我們的手, 透過我們的心思, 使之轉換出來. 聲波是科學儀器測量得出來的, 人的腦也有腦波, 身體肯定也能接收與放出不同的波, 會隨著喜怒哀樂而改變. 古人說"喜怒哀樂必歸中和, 萬物生育莫不由此." 天人合一我開始覺得越來越能瞭解是什麼境界了. 然而瞭解歸瞭解, 能不能做到那恐怕是一輩子的功夫, 所以才是極具挑戰性的目標呀 

    my humble thought of today, about the idea of harmonized between human and nature: Sound has sound waves and that is nature phenomenon. When we play the guqin, we let all the sound waves come out, but how to make all the sound waves mix in harmony (emotionally and physically, such as strong, soft, long, short, loud, and soft etc,.) that is our goal and that is 天人合一. The goal is to be a balanced and self-awareness person.


  • Judy Z 天人合一通常理解为天人相应，或天人相通。是人和自然在本质上是相通的，故一切人事均应顺乎自然规律，达到人与自然和谐。很多中华的文学艺术都追求这一理念


  • Chen Z 哈, 我連什麼是天什麼是人都沒搞清楚...天人合一的那叫聖人


  • Ralph  wu wei - but I'm still far away.


  • Ralph  I don't think it has to be a mysterious idea. The butcher did it after all


  • Shuengit  to me 天人合一 could be interpreted by different people in each their context w specific "scenarios" - but a simple image would be someone doing whatever they are doing and they forget themselves, lost themselves while doing it (happily, like children playing and sudddenly fallen asleep. ) There is no awareness of where the self stops and the beyond-self begins. This state would be a natural high induced by guqin playing.  Its is not unique to guqin playing, any activity done for itself with focus would have this effect.


  • Timzen Playing music has this effect. Don't have to be a master to play one satisfying note!


  • Jean-Yves We find the same in tea philosophy, 天人合一。


  • Jean-Yves And in 太極拳 taichi chuan, calligraphy,... all those arts were influenced by the taoist philosophy/wisdom. The ultimate goal is, I think, spiritual : to experience the dao 道。與道冥合。


  • 信儒 忘記了其他的事...


  • Peiyou  Ralph, that's right. The butcher Ding did it after all. 庖丁解牛. So the only way to reach this goal is PRACTICING. 要達到天人合一唯有一法:練
    Quote again from Chén Yù-jiàn from Nothern Sòng: 惟優游自得, 不為來去所窘, 乃為合道. Only playing qin with a free and leisurely manner, and not discomfit with any movement, one can reach the dao.


  • Peiyou  I also like this quote, from Qing Dynasty ChénYòucí 's Qín Lùn (also called Theory of the Qin) 陳幼慈的[琴論] 說到: 右彈左應,若出一手,過絃不覺,若出一絲. the right hand plucking, and the left hand pressing or touching, as they are done by one hand; Without feeling the hands crossing silk strings as they are only one string of silk. 要能把指下功夫練到這境地,便離道不遠啦~ Again, practicing our fingers to this level, then it is closer to the dao.


  • WS  天人合一指的是无我无为，无无我无无为。


  • Peiyou Chang WS , 有沒有更白話一點的說法?:)


  • Jim 無巫舞唔。。。


  • Taiji Wu 也許證验是最好的辦法--草閣流春，虛堂凝雪？


  • Jim  See what happens when I mention "wu" Taiji Wu appears ...


  • Taiji Wu 合一：）


  • Peiyou  感謝Master Taiji Wu的指點. 再把溪山琴況拿出來細讀. 其第一況之[和]已然告知何為天人合一也.


  • Peiyou  This is going to be hard to translate in English. What Master Wu mentioned the 草閣流春，虛堂凝雪 came from Ming dynasty qin master Xú Shàng-yíng's (also known as Xú Qīng-shān) thesis [ Xī shān 24 qín kuàng] , the 24 points of the qin aesthetics. And the first point is Hé (Harmonized). "... 暑可變也，虛堂凝雪；寒可回也，草閣流春。其無盡藏，不可思議，則音與意和，莫知其然而然矣。要之神閒氣凝，藹然醉心；太和鼓鬯，心手自知，未可一二為言也。太音希聲，古道難複。不以性情中和相遇，而以為是技也，斯愈久而愈失其傳矣。 " My understanding is that if the player's mind has a snowing image and his or her playing gives listeners a snowing feeling even if it is in a hot empty room.... means that the music matches the player's mind.... this can only be happen when the player's energy and spirit are in a comfort and concentrated zone... Only the player's mind and hands knows, however it is beyond one or two words to describe. The greatest sound is very rare. Old way is hard to recover. And this is not a skill, it is within a person's personality and now this kind of Inheritance is going to disappear when time goes on.


  • Andre  Hm... "forget ourselves", seems to me hide a tricky question about what we think about the nature, or exactly what is the nature and how we perceive it. Because if we wonder what is nature, (although we know every day what it is) we decided to do from the point of view of our identity or our individual perception. In this case we assume that we are a one, and the next step is to form an opinion in this regard thus creating an even greater distance of whatever nature is. So we stopped forget ourselves to achieve some specific knowledge...


  • Peiyou  I think to be able to "forget ourselves", we need to go through the experience of "aware of ourselves".


  • Taiji Wu The Oneness between Human Being and the Nature.


  • Andre yes, I also think it is possible to "forget..." But I also believe to be a "state of mind" indescribable, or even unthinkable. Probably the beauty is there ... 


  • Peiyou  Andre, I see what you mean, and I think that is also what 大音希聲 (The greatest sound has almost no sound) means. There is still things beyond words but does not mean that it is not exist. 


  • Andre  always remember the students of my Master of Tai Chi asking similar things to this. And he always Said, "I'm not talking about Tai Chi but life. There are no differences"


  • Andre  Yes! That's it! A fully agree Pei 


  • Peiyou  Andre, but if I am one of your Tai Chi master's student, I will still confused about his answer, haha...


  • Andre  by the way where can I find this text you quoted? (ChénYòucí's Qin Lun)


  • Peiyou  I believe Robert Van Gulik's book (The Lore of The Chinese Lute) has it.


  • Peiyou  Oh sorry, I am wrong.


  • Peiyou  Robert Van Gulik's book (The Lore of The Chinese Lute) has the Xī shān 24 qín kuàng. For the ChénYòucí's Qin Lun, I don't know if there is in English yet.


  • Peiyou  Andre, I am wrong again about Van Gulik's book, it has the translation of the 16 rules for the tones of the qin by the "Immortal Leng", not the 24 qín kuàng. Do you want to read the ChénYòucí's Qin Lun in Chinese?


  • Jim  Note that RVG passed on translating of that section .


  • Peiyou  "... Then the soul shall be free and the spirit at rest, fingers and strings melt together, and the pure harmony that leaves no trace shall be produced. There are the signs by which I recognized the great Harmony."

  • Andre  to answer your question above (about my Master of Tai Chi). When students were many questions he smiled and said "too many passions and no patience" 


  • Peiyou  I see I see.


  • 信儒 言語道斷 心行處滅.


  • Peiyou  言語道斷，心行處滅，故名不可思議境。 自性本定的境界.


  • WS  培幼老师，小弟从香/茶中悟到的一些观点给您参考 ：
    音，就像香味，是悬挂在大自然的屏幕上的。 天人合一指的是无我，“自我” 不存在的状态， 无为指的是就像河流般的自如自在，弹琴时一半推动音乐，也同样一半被音乐推动，无无为无无我的观点是为了避免进入一个过于“做作“的状态 (to avoid both extremes)。天为大自然，琴者心境如天，意境如天，人就会融入天人合一，成为一个好屏幕。


  • Peiyou  WS , 不敢當,請別稱我為老師, 互相切磋, 我從你那也學到不少. 你的說明確實讓我更能理解. 感謝.

  •   Peiyou I need to check out Nondualism
    Advaita Vedanta has gained attention in western spirituality and New Age, where various traditions are seen as driven by the same non-dual experience. Nonduality points to "a primordial, natural awareness without subject     or object". It is also used to refer to interconnectedness, "the sense that all things are interconnected and not separate, while at the same time all things retain their individuality" ---wiki
This fits into Human and Nature as one, 這就是天人合一.
The last day of 2014, wonderful discussion. Let's all have a brighter and happy 2015.
2014 年最後一篇貼文, 很喜歡這樣的討論, 祝大家有個更明亮更健康的2015年.

 9/22/2015
Today heard about Mysticism 密契主义 is similar to 天人合一 , and the saying "To find unity with himself, with his fellow men, and with the cosmos" 與人群 與自我 與宇宙 合一

 傅佩榮教授說: 密契經驗的四個特色:
1) 不可說, 如果要說必須用相對的情況才能說, 但如果合而回一時就無法說是什麼了
2) 短暫性. 不會持續永久, 可能就是幾分鐘幾十分鐘
3) 被動性, 不可操縱
4) 生命力的再現, 鼓動生命力, 生命有了能量有勇氣

 道家的天人合一並不是最高境界, 與道冥和才是最高境界
道不等於大自然. 道是整體, 是大自然的根源, 是人類的根源
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